Thoughts on the new range system?

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Thoughts on the new range system?

Post  MrToddington on Tue Sep 25, 2012 10:14 am

Given a lot of people aren't enjoying the new format for threads (that is, the removal of registers in the range listings), I feel it's best to open up a thread that allows people to discuss.

If you aren't liking the change, feel free to state your opinion here. And on the other hand, if you do like the removal of registers, feel free to tell everyone why. I'm hoping that with this, maybe we can reach more of an agreement on the way things should be done.

Let the flame war begin!

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Re: Thoughts on the new range system?

Post  MooseyFate on Tue Sep 25, 2012 10:21 am

Bring back registers. God bless USA

A guy with (C#2-)D2-G5(-C#6) should not have, at a glance, the same range as a guy with (C#2-)F2-A4(-C#6).

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Re: Thoughts on the new range system?

Post  Guest on Tue Sep 25, 2012 10:23 am

MooseyFate wrote:Bring back registers. God bless USA

A guy with (C#2-)D2-G5(-C#6) should not have, at a glance, the same range as a guy with (C#2-)F2-A4(-C#6).

This.

Let's mark uncertain / unclear notes in a colour. If some people do not agree whether it's full or not, just mark it in that colour and we're fine.
Remember, a note isn't better it it's full. So you might argue about it if you want to, but it won't make the note a better or worse note in the end.

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Re: Thoughts on the new range system?

Post  Guest on Tue Sep 25, 2012 10:55 am

Do not bring back registers. Awful.

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Re: Thoughts on the new range system?

Post  Guest on Tue Sep 25, 2012 10:55 am

MooseyFate wrote:A guy with (C#2-)D2-G5(-C#6) should not have, at a glance, the same range as a guy with (C#2-)F2-A4(-C#6).

And why not? Somebody like Vitas DEFINITELY sounds better with his falsetto range than David Lee Roth does with his full range. A pointless argument.

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Re: Thoughts on the new range system?

Post  Guest on Tue Sep 25, 2012 10:58 am

Somma1984 wrote:
MooseyFate wrote:Bring back registers. God bless USA

A guy with (C#2-)D2-G5(-C#6) should not have, at a glance, the same range as a guy with (C#2-)F2-A4(-C#6).

This.

Let's mark uncertain / unclear notes in a colour. If some people do not agree whether it's full or not, just mark it in that colour and we're fine.
Remember, a note isn't better it it's full. So you might argue about it if you want to, but it won't make the note a better or worse note in the end.

More colours!?


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Re: Thoughts on the new range system?

Post  Guest on Tue Sep 25, 2012 11:00 am

it's not about who's better. "better" is a personal opinion anyway.
it's about the fact that their voices and ranges are different. and i think we should try and gather as much information as possible. even if that will include some discussions about what's full and what is not.

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Re: Thoughts on the new range system?

Post  Guest on Tue Sep 25, 2012 11:01 am

T. wrote:
Somma1984 wrote:
MooseyFate wrote:Bring back registers. God bless USA

A guy with (C#2-)D2-G5(-C#6) should not have, at a glance, the same range as a guy with (C#2-)F2-A4(-C#6).

This.

Let's mark uncertain / unclear notes in a colour. If some people do not agree whether it's full or not, just mark it in that colour and we're fine.
Remember, a note isn't better it it's full. So you might argue about it if you want to, but it won't make the note a better or worse note in the end.

More colours!?


sure. red for bad/funny notes and green for unclear registers.

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Re: Thoughts on the new range system?

Post  Monocus on Tue Sep 25, 2012 11:03 am

It's quite good that the actual listing of notes isn't divided into "significant notes (full)" and "significant notes (non-modal)" any more.
That part should definitely stay.
It wouldn't hurt, however, to include registers again in some way, without overemphasising them.
In my threads I mostly use this format:
Sung range: F2-E6
Total range: C2-E6
Full voice range: E2-F5

While emphasising sung range, it still informs of what we assume to be the singer's full voice range.
In case of doubt Somma's idea could be a a possible way to handle things.
Also the full voice range could be declared as something like "assumed full voice range".

A hypothetical example:

Sung range: F2-B5
Total range: C2-E6
Assumed full voice range: E2-F5

Significant high notes:
E6 ("Survival")
B5 ("The March of the Black Queen")
B♭5 ("Bohemian Rhapsody", "I Got You (I Feel Good)")
A5 ("Father to Son", "In the Lap of the Gods", "My Fairy King", "39'")
F5 ("Let's Get Crazy")
E5 ("I'm in Love with My Car", "Let's Get Crazy", "I Wanna Testify", "The Loser in the End", "Rock 'n' Roll")
D5 ("Let's Get Crazy", "Hammer to Fall" live, "Crazy Little Thing Called Love" live, "Modern Times Rock 'n' Roll", "Rock and Roll" live)

*Orange marks notes with questionable fullness
*Green marks non-modal notes
*Italics mark non-sung notes

The second part, marking notes in the listing could be omitted, since it's potentially unclear - too many colours!
But: As long as full voice range does not appear superior - which it of course isn't - incorporating registers doesn't have to be a curse.
And for singers like Kiske marking full voice range could still be omitted completely.




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Re: Thoughts on the new range system?

Post  Guest on Tue Sep 25, 2012 11:05 am

Monocus wrote:It's quite good that the actual listing of notes isn't divided into "significant notes (full)" and "significant notes (non-modal)" any more.
That part should definitely stay.
It wouldn't hurt, however, to include registers again in some way, without overemphasising them.
In my threads I mostly use this format:
Sung range: F2-E6
Total range: C2-E6
Full voice range: E2-F5

While emphasising sung range, it still informs of what we assume to be the singer's full voice range.
In case of doubt Somma's idea could be a a possible way to handle things.
Also the full voice range could be declared as something like "assumed full voice range".

A hypothetical example:

Sung range: F2-B5
Total range: C2-E6
Assumed full voice range: E2-F5

Significant high notes:
E6 ("Survival")
B5 ("The March of the Black Queen")
B♭5 ("Bohemian Rhapsody", "I Got You (I Feel Good)")
A5 ("Father to Son", "In the Lap of the Gods", "My Fairy King", "39'")
F5 ("Let's Get Crazy")
E5 ("I'm in Love with My Car", "Let's Get Crazy", "I Wanna Testify", "The Loser in the End", "Rock 'n' Roll")
D5 ("Let's Get Crazy", "Hammer to Fall" live, "Crazy Little Thing Called Love" live, "Modern Times Rock 'n' Roll", "Rock and Roll" live)

*Orange marks notes with questionable fullness
*Green marks non-modal notes
*Italics mark non-sung notes

The second part, marking notes in the listing could be omitted, since it's potentially unclear - too many colours!
But: As long as full voice range does not appear superior - which it of course isn't - incorporating registers doesn't have to be a curse.
And for singers like Kiske marking full voice range could still be omitted completely.

I definitely like this idea more. This way, we get "the best of both worlds", I think.

Also, don't forget the red colour.

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Re: Thoughts on the new range system?

Post  MrToddington on Tue Sep 25, 2012 11:07 am

I'm all for "assumed full voice". Smile

I think we need to avoid 20 pages of "yeah sounds full", "nah man there's no way a HT can go that low" sort of thing, and actually focus on the appreciation of vocals.

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Re: Thoughts on the new range system?

Post  AJD125 on Tue Sep 25, 2012 11:48 am

I would agree with something along the lines of what Monocus has suggested. I think its better and simpler with the listing not separated out, but I really don't like the idea of having nothing at all to differentiate full voice from non-modal. For some singers its pretty easy to differentiate full from non-modal so really the tedious arguments are only going to happen on some threads and not all. For example I don't see why Bono's full voice range has been removed because there was never any debate about it being anything other than C#2-C#5.
For singers where it isn't so straight forward (Chester Bennington to name just one) then I would be happy with the 'assumed full voice range' although I don't reckon that will solve the problem with the tedious arguments about what is full and what is not.
I'm not a big fan of all the different colours, but since I can't think of a better way of doing it then I'll just say I'm happy to go with it.

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Re: Thoughts on the new range system?

Post  TESKHA on Tue Sep 25, 2012 1:16 pm

What is adding 'assumed' going to change? It'll just become pages of 'I assume this is full!' 'No, I assume it's falsetto!'; instead of 'This is full' 'No, it's falsetto'. I don't understand why everyone is so insistent on treating what they perceive as full voice as the be all and end all of singing and one's vocal range. It's sad because this forum is a great idea.

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Re: Thoughts on the new range system?

Post  AJD125 on Tue Sep 25, 2012 2:48 pm

TESKHA wrote:I don't understand why everyone is so insistent on treating what they perceive as full voice as the be all and end all of singing and one's vocal range. It's sad because this forum is a great idea.

no-one has said that full voice is the 'be all and end all of singing'. I just want someone's full voice range to be displayed in their thread. I'm perfectly fine with grouping different registers together in the significant high/low notes listings, and from what I've read on this thread, so is everyone else who has posted here.

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Re: Thoughts on the new range system?

Post  Celice on Tue Sep 25, 2012 3:30 pm

Since we're never going to have a system everybody's 100% happy with, some sort of compromise like this seems reasonable. Would we have a sticky thread explaining the colour code or put that information on each thread? I also think the if we're using the green/ orange colours as suggested above, we should probably revert to Laughing instead of red, that way we can use a colour and a smiley together to denote a rubbish note of questionable register.

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