To Blue or Not to Blue?

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Do you favor the distinction of falsetto notes?

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Re: To Blue or Not to Blue?

Post  BioHazard634 on Thu Sep 25, 2014 9:45 am

Scooby Doo wrote:
wabba_treads wrote:Dude, you're free to include the blue falsetto notes if you wish on your own threads. No problem at all!

It becomes a problem however, when someone would barge in and derail a thread (not in a nice way either, see MyFairyKing)  that isn't theirs just to say that they don't agree with the register a certain note is in. Well guess what? A really coordinated singer can use so many different sound colors to implement to rather than just "full voice" or "just falsetto". I don't think its this black and white (pun partially intended Laughing )

Seeing all the bickering about what register a note just really irks me. For one thing, unless you are the singer him/herself producing the note, there's no way to tell for sure what register its in unless the singer is making it obvious, whether or not its on purpose. This whole stigma attached to what is and what isn't full voice (when everyone's definition thereof is different) has just got to end. Its just not worth all the aggravation and its led to constant canyon of butthurt TRP 1.0 style, which is why we discourage the old color system nowadays.
Thanks for the response but I don't understand. This is the first I've heard of a supposed falsetto stigma. And I very rarely witness bickering on whether or not a singer is using falsetto. It's a hot topic when discussing opera sopranists, but elsewise falsetto and full voice are night and day.
You also claim that I'm free to distinguish falsetto in my own threads but I had members of staff berate me for it in two of my threads.

Perhaps it would be a good idea to make threads more user-friendly. If it was easier to hear each listed pitch then it would be possible for users to "come to their own conclusion" without slugging through multiple songs. Timestamps along each pitch would be helpful.
This is all too true. I'm not saying names or pointing fingers, but there are people who will say you're free to use that system, but then commonly suggest that you use a different one (and plenty of times this isn't done in a nice or civil way; I use the word "suggest" a little loosely). For those of you who do this, just realize what you're doing and try to go about things a little more consistently and constructively.
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Re: To Blue or Not to Blue?

Post  Karl on Thu Sep 25, 2014 9:54 am


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Re: To Blue or Not to Blue?

Post  wabba_treads on Thu Sep 25, 2014 10:01 am

Scooby Doo wrote:
wabba_treads wrote:
Scooby Doo wrote:I think the distinction should definitely be made. I don't think anyone will deny that falsetto doesn't have uses but in my opinion it's misleading to quantify vocal range as a unit if that unit has a break. Vocal range shouldn't be considered for the distance between the lowest and highest note alone, but for the quality and control the singer has in between. Falsetto is a break because it doesn't lend the same flexability of dynamic and timbre as the full-voice range. Retaining that flexability throughout your range is what many singers strive for and why the distinction is stressed in opera, theater, vocal tuition, etc.

At the very least it would be good to see certain users opposed to this "system" respect that this distinction is almost universal within "singing circles" instead of insulting other users.

Dude, you're free to include the blue falsetto notes if you wish on your own threads. No problem at all!

It becomes a problem however, when someone would barge in and derail a thread (not in a nice way either, see MyFairyKing)  that isn't theirs just to say that they don't agree with the register a certain note is in. Well guess what? A really coordinated singer can use so many different sound colors to implement to rather than just "full voice" or "just falsetto". I don't think its this black and white (pun partially intended Laughing )

Seeing all the bickering about what register a note just really irks me. For one thing, unless you are the singer him/herself producing the note, there's no way to tell for sure what register its in unless the singer is making it obvious, whether or not its on purpose. This whole stigma attached to what is and what isn't full voice (when everyone's definition thereof is different) has just got to end. Its just not worth all the aggravation and its led to constant canyon of butthurt TRP 1.0 style, which is why we discourage the old color system nowadays.
Thanks for the response but I don't understand. This is the first I've heard of a supposed falsetto stigma. And I very rarely witness bickering on whether or not a singer is using falsetto. It's a hot topic when discussing opera sopranists, but elsewise falsetto and full voice are night and day.
You also claim that I'm free to distinguish falsetto in my own threads but I had members of staff berate me for it in two of my threads.

Perhaps it would be a good idea to make threads more user-friendly. If it was easier to hear each listed pitch then it would be possible for users to "come to their own conclusion" without slugging through multiple songs. Timestamps along each pitch would be helpful.

So you said some user against the  blue color system harassed you  Eh

Well here's my personal message to whoever that was. By bothering someone on their own thread about including blue notes u just because it may create conflict two things happen.

1. You create conflict Rolling Eyes

2. It makes the OP not want to adopt the simpler system that you encourage because of the hostility towards the OP.

Edit: Actually I take that all back. Scooby, take what some users say with a grain of salt. Some people are sarcastic but we all are just trying to prevent the hostile discussions of the old forum from happening.


Last edited by wabba_treads on Thu Sep 25, 2014 10:06 am; edited 1 time in total
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Re: To Blue or Not to Blue?

Post  Hopscotch on Thu Sep 25, 2014 10:05 am

BioHazard634 wrote:
Scooby Doo wrote:
wabba_treads wrote:Dude, you're free to include the blue falsetto notes if you wish on your own threads. No problem at all!

It becomes a problem however, when someone would barge in and derail a thread (not in a nice way either, see MyFairyKing)  that isn't theirs just to say that they don't agree with the register a certain note is in. Well guess what? A really coordinated singer can use so many different sound colors to implement to rather than just "full voice" or "just falsetto". I don't think its this black and white (pun partially intended Laughing )

Seeing all the bickering about what register a note just really irks me. For one thing, unless you are the singer him/herself producing the note, there's no way to tell for sure what register its in unless the singer is making it obvious, whether or not its on purpose. This whole stigma attached to what is and what isn't full voice (when everyone's definition thereof is different) has just got to end. Its just not worth all the aggravation and its led to constant canyon of butthurt TRP 1.0 style, which is why we discourage the old color system nowadays.
Thanks for the response but I don't understand. This is the first I've heard of a supposed falsetto stigma. And I very rarely witness bickering on whether or not a singer is using falsetto. It's a hot topic when discussing opera sopranists, but elsewise falsetto and full voice are night and day.
You also claim that I'm free to distinguish falsetto in my own threads but I had members of staff berate me for it in two of my threads.

Perhaps it would be a good idea to make threads more user-friendly. If it was easier to hear each listed pitch then it would be possible for users to "come to their own conclusion" without slugging through multiple songs. Timestamps along each pitch would be helpful.
This is all too true. I'm not saying names or pointing fingers, but there are people who will say you're free to use that system, but then commonly suggest that you use a different one (and plenty of times this isn't done in a nice or civil way; I use the word "suggest" a little loosely). For those of you who do this, just realize what you're doing and try to go about things a little more consistently and constructively.
The way I see it, it's not entirely fair for us to demand that everyone follow a certain system, because that's what we tried to do on TRP1; then when we realized that our logic in following those systems was flawed, we had to change everything and everyone else got dragged along with those changes as a result. We only really started implementing the "no registers, no voice types" system around last summer, and when that change happened, I realized that we had already forced so many system changes upon the entire forum community that there was no point trying to do the same thing all over again at that point. So instead, I just started applying the new system to my own threads, and left others with the option to choose which one they wanted to follow. Fortunately, others saw how mine made sense and began to follow it on their own terms, so it ultimately ended up working out for the best.

However, with all that said, we're still entitled to free speech on here, so if one does disagree with a system that another is using, one is still entitled to express their opinion on it. I still do that whenever I see people using some of the voice types and register terminology that we made up on TRP1, because I think those are stupid. So yes, you are free to use whatever system you want, but people are likewise free to call you out on why they don't think you should use it.


Last edited by Wanderlust on Thu Sep 25, 2014 1:24 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Re: To Blue or Not to Blue?

Post  Karl on Thu Sep 25, 2014 10:05 am

If he's referring to Starman and Sandblasteds responses to his threads, that's not harassment.

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Re: To Blue or Not to Blue?

Post  Guest on Thu Sep 25, 2014 10:07 am

Karl wrote:http://therangeplace.forummotions.com/st/Scooby%20Doo
Far from being "berated".

You think these are respectful?

Sandblasted wrote:Also, why do you bother w/ that "Modal range" crap but don't bother to mark backing vocals? I mean, the latter is actually, ya know, worthwhile information. Wasn\'t Me

Starman wrote:
Scooby Doo wrote:Thanks for the feedback. His belted and falsetto range are like night-and-day so I will leave the distinction.

Like it matter? Rolling Eyes
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Re: To Blue or Not to Blue?

Post  Hopscotch on Thu Sep 25, 2014 10:09 am

Didn't realize things were gonna get this touchy...
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Re: To Blue or Not to Blue?

Post  Karl on Thu Sep 25, 2014 10:13 am

Scooby Doo wrote:
Karl wrote:http://therangeplace.forummotions.com/st/Scooby%20Doo
Far from being "berated".

You think these are respectful?

Sandblasted wrote:Also, why do you bother w/ that "Modal range" crap but don't bother to mark backing vocals? I mean, the latter is actually, ya know, worthwhile information. Wasn\'t Me

Starman wrote:
Scooby Doo wrote:Thanks for the feedback. His belted and falsetto range are like night-and-day so I will leave the distinction.

Like it matter? Rolling Eyes
Not respectful but not disrespectful either. They were giving you advice.

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Re: To Blue or Not to Blue?

Post  BioHazard634 on Thu Sep 25, 2014 10:16 am

Wanderlust wrote:Didn't realize things were gonna get this touchy...
Do keep in mind that a new member putting up a thread and having "higher-ups" talk to him like that can be a little intimidating, even if it isn't that bad. As Wabba said though, you do have to take things with a grain of salt on here (I feel like that's actually one of TRP's mottos).
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Re: To Blue or Not to Blue?

Post  wabba_treads on Thu Sep 25, 2014 10:23 am

BioHazard634 wrote:
Wanderlust wrote:Didn't realize things were gonna get this touchy...
Do keep in mind that a new member putting up a thread and having "higher-ups" talk to him like that can be a little intimidating, even if it isn't that bad. As Wabba said though, you do have to take things with a grain of salt on here (I feel like that's actually one of TRP's mottos).

Well its no secret that people do like to kid around a lot just to shake things up. Since Scooby is a new member, however, those can easily be taken a personal attacks instead of banter. Still me personally I wouldve toned down the sarcasm just so the new guy can see our point and not be distracted and led astray by that.
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Re: To Blue or Not to Blue?

Post  Guest on Thu Sep 25, 2014 10:30 am

Karl wrote:
Scooby Doo wrote:
Karl wrote:http://therangeplace.forummotions.com/st/Scooby%20Doo
Far from being "berated".

You think these are respectful?

Sandblasted wrote:Also, why do you bother w/ that "Modal range" crap but don't bother to mark backing vocals? I mean, the latter is actually, ya know, worthwhile information. Wasn\'t Me

Starman wrote:
Scooby Doo wrote:Thanks for the feedback. His belted and falsetto range are like night-and-day so I will leave the distinction.

Like it matter? Rolling Eyes
Not respectful but not disrespectful either. They were giving you advice.
I don't think seeping advice to new users in rudeness and passive-aggression is a good idea. It's certainly not going to win them around to your ideology.
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Re: To Blue or Not to Blue?

Post  Karl on Thu Sep 25, 2014 10:55 am

You're going back to the subjective argument of whether the statements are rude/passive aggressive or not.
They're not going to force you into doing things a particular way in your threads, that's your prerogative. They were trying to indicate to you that including that information is not necessary and doesn't do much good for the forum, being more experienced users and all. It doesn't matter whether saying this could upset a new user.

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Re: To Blue or Not to Blue?

Post  Holsety on Thu Sep 25, 2014 10:59 am

The main problem is, the system is still allowed even though almost the entire mod community could live without the old system altogether. You'll see we may sometimes use a color to denote a singer's soft/clear falsetto notes when their range is easy to distinguish.

It should be a given not to use the system otherwise; for example, you've started using them for your Jonathan Davis thread. That's mainly where the mods are encouraging users to focus on distinguishing backing vocal notes and softness vs raspy/gritty qualities rather than 'full' vs 'falsetto'. The system's been going as long as the old system did by itself with no problems; theoretically we would've had a new system by now, but I think it's more important that we either revise that old system or get rid of it. Sorry to those that find it important, but considering we don't like seeing it, why should we allow it?
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Re: To Blue or Not to Blue?

Post  BioHazard634 on Thu Sep 25, 2014 11:03 am

Holsety wrote:The main problem is, the system is still allowed even though almost the entire mod community could live without the old system altogether. You'll see we may sometimes use a color to denote a singer's soft/clear falsetto notes when their range is easy to distinguish.

It should be a given not to use the system otherwise; for example, you've started using them for your Jonathan Davis thread. That's mainly where the mods are encouraging users to focus on distinguishing backing vocal notes and softness vs raspy/gritty qualities rather than 'full' vs 'falsetto'. The system's been going as long as the old system did by itself with no problems; theoretically we would've had a new system by now, but I think it's more important that we either revise that old system or get rid of it. Sorry to those that find it important, but considering we don't like seeing it, why should we allow it?
Scroll up.
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Re: To Blue or Not to Blue?

Post  Sandblasted on Thu Sep 25, 2014 11:57 am

Apologies if I came off as more harsh than I intended, I sometimes have little patience (especially when it comes to newer members since we've had quite a few have made some preeeeetty bad first impressions). I understand you're pretty new and may not be aware of the background of this forum, keep in mind what may seem "black and white" in other communities may not be so for others (this one especially), since "modal" is a word you DO NOT want to use lightly around here, since when it comes to analyzing popular music vocalists this can be a touchy issue. Hence why I recommended against using that word entirely. I still mark soft falsetto notes in my own threads, yet only to point out a stylistic choice rather concern over "modality", otherwise I could dig up some preeeetty terrible examples from the forum's history showing arguments over "power falsetto" and other such nonsense terms. Facepalm
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Re: To Blue or Not to Blue?

Post  Hopscotch on Thu Sep 25, 2014 12:26 pm

Pretty much, yeah. I do have to agree to the overall point, though - some of us who are against the whole black/blue/orange system can sometimes really overreact to someone casually using terminology like "full" here and there. Starman in particular is one who comes to mind as being pretty guilty of this, so if it's an apology you're looking for, allow me to grant that on his behalf. However, I'd also like to second the notion that you need to have tough enough skin to brush off a few jabs here and there, cause that's ultimately just the way things are on this forum. Not to sound passive-aggressive or anything, but if you're going to get offended every time you get a bit of snark from someone, this forum may not be the best place for you.
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Re: To Blue or Not to Blue?

Post  BioHazard634 on Thu Sep 25, 2014 12:53 pm

I don't know if that could've been said much better.
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Re: To Blue or Not to Blue?

Post  wabba_treads on Thu Sep 25, 2014 12:54 pm

Wanderlust wrote:Pretty much, yeah. I do have to agree to the overall point, though - some of us who are against the whole black/blue/orange system can sometimes really overreact to someone casually using terminology like "full" here and there. Starman in particular is one who comes to mind as being pretty guilty of this, so if it's an apology you're looking for, allow me to grant that on his behalf. However, I'd also like to second the notion that you need to have tough enough skin to brush off a few jabs here and there, cause that's ultimately just the way things are on this forum. Not to sound passive-aggressive or anything, but if you're going to get offended every time you get a bit of snark from someone, this forum may not be the best place for you.

Well said man. Very well said! Thumb up
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Re: To Blue or Not to Blue?

Post  Molandfreak on Thu Sep 25, 2014 1:25 pm

Karl wrote:
Molandfreak wrote:If prefixes are truly just discouraged (not outright banned), why was one of mine deleted?  Abuse of power?
What prefix was it before and what was it changed to?
It was here: http://therangeplace.forummotions.com/t2021-alfred-diblasi

I do realize now that this was a pretty stupid thread to make, but I did make it back when I was a total newbie who knew very little about the happenings here. I heard Alfred as a high-placed (lyric) baritone who would bottom out at about F2 or E2, so I listed him as high baritone, but the "high" prefix was deleted within a few hours.
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Re: To Blue or Not to Blue?

Post  Hopscotch on Thu Sep 25, 2014 1:28 pm

Why not list him as a lyric baritone instead Christmas wink
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Re: To Blue or Not to Blue?

Post  Molandfreak on Thu Sep 25, 2014 1:33 pm

Wanderlust wrote:Why not list him as a lyric baritone instead Christmas wink
I guess I could do that. Just reading old threads made me think that "high" and "low" were the only acceptable differentiating prefixes. Wink
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Re: To Blue or Not to Blue?

Post  Celice on Thu Sep 25, 2014 1:39 pm

I think part of the problem with the previous usage of the "High" and "Low" prefixes was that it actually distorted the perceived meaning of the terms "baritone" and "tenor" when used alone. These are words in common usage which have meanings widely understood outside TRP, but we found ourselves in the somewhat silly situation that an unprefixed voice type was interpreted as meaning a "mid" (or previously "standard") variety, so the words almost lost their original wider definitions.
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Re: To Blue or Not to Blue?

Post  Hopscotch on Thu Sep 25, 2014 1:43 pm

Also true.
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Re: To Blue or Not to Blue?

Post  Guest on Thu Sep 25, 2014 8:42 pm

Sandblasted wrote:Apologies if I came off as more harsh than I intended, I sometimes have little patience (especially when it comes to newer members since we've had quite a few have made some preeeeetty bad first impressions). I understand you're pretty new and may not be aware of the background of this forum, keep in mind what may seem "black and white" in other communities may not be so for others (this one especially), since "modal" is a word you DO NOT want to use lightly around here, since when it comes to analyzing popular music vocalists this can be a touchy issue. Hence why I recommended against using that word entirely. I still mark soft falsetto notes in my own threads, yet only to point out a stylistic choice rather concern over "modality", otherwise I could dig up some preeeetty terrible examples from the forum's history showing arguments over "power falsetto" and other such nonsense terms. Facepalm
Thanks for the apology, and for not spinning my complaints into a fault with my own character as others have...
I think I'm coming to understand what you mean. Are people too rigidly associating the concept of modality and falsetto with the physiology of the voice? While it's true that you can't be 100% sure what register a singer sings in without a stroboscopy, falsetto and full voice are usually distinct enough in sound that it's not a problem. But a lot of disagreements stem from discussing the difference between chest, mix, and head voice, for instance.
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Re: To Blue or Not to Blue?

Post  Holsety on Fri Sep 26, 2014 3:30 am

Feel free to use the same logic everyone else did two years ago, but we've been doing this long enough to see the problem with that system and move on. The old incarnation of this forum started off doing the same thing, only not listing what they perceived to be 'falsetto' at all. The next step was the blue/orange/red system, which I've made enough posts about in Celice's color coding thread. Basically, anyone could make the thread differently, list any note differently based on what they believe it sounds like. With this in mind, how is it valid?

By the way, you're not gonna find that much 'respect' holding an opinion a good amount of the active users on a forum dislike. This is also the internet we're talking about. Just keep that in mind.
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Re: To Blue or Not to Blue?

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