To Blue or Not to Blue?

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Do you favor the distinction of falsetto notes?

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Re: To Blue or Not to Blue?

Post  BioHazard634 on Tue Aug 05, 2014 11:20 am

wabba_treads wrote:
B6 wrote:Not relevant to the main discussion, but, however scary and inconsequential, Galas'(s?) singing is definitely insanely controlled, intentional, etc etc. It's meant to be the way it is, I'd like to say. Though I'm not sure that plays in her favour as a person http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mIVWqn1AvAc

On that note, I still don't know what to call this...

That's just called Yoko Ono.
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Re: To Blue or Not to Blue?

Post  Karl on Tue Aug 05, 2014 11:23 am

She should leave that to Patton.

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Re: To Blue or Not to Blue?

Post  B6 on Tue Aug 05, 2014 7:57 pm

wabba_treads wrote:
On that note, I still don't know what to call this...
A few ideas:
1- Pretense
2- Boredom
3- Belly ache
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Re: To Blue or Not to Blue?

Post  The Great Heroins on Tue Aug 05, 2014 8:04 pm

Nailed it B6!  I don't even like to hate on Yoko Ono; I respect her as John Lennon's lover.  However, she should never pick up the microphone until she abandons that dumb as hell avante garde bullshit that NO ONE wants to hear and use her actual singing voice. (which is fairly decent compared to this shit)

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Re: To Blue or Not to Blue?

Post  B6 on Tue Aug 05, 2014 8:31 pm

The Great Heroins wrote:that NO ONE wants to hear
I'm sure plenty of people do, actually. Which is weird to me.
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Re: To Blue or Not to Blue?

Post  OldSchoolHeavyMetal on Wed Aug 06, 2014 10:07 pm

As for what most people consider range. Actually, I'd say there are plenty who just consider anything regardless of register(including King Diamond), but I've heard many, even LONG before this site who don't count falsetto. "Full voice" obviously isn't a term that originates here.

I'm not saying that's a good argument for it, but you'll hear definitions of range vary A LOT.

Personally, I think there are singers who largely use a tone or register consistent with their chest voice, but then have a falsetto completely different tonally. I'll give 2 examples. One being Ronnie James Dio who seemed to pretty much just push his mixed voice in his prime. Rarely going above D5, where he was great up to, or E♭5 at times depending on the key, but in "Wild One" from 1990, he pushes it to G5, and then in the live versions G♯5 and even A5, but then has versions of that song where he takes it to B5, but that sounds completely different, and similar to those later live screams from 2005 on such as the classic A5 from the 2007 Radio City version of "The Mob Rules", or the 2005/2006 versions of "Gypsy" and others, which have a completely unique sound. Bruce Dickinson is similar in a sense. He pushed his mixed voice to some remarkable clean notes with E5s in "Where Eagles Dare", "The Duellists" ect., and then had a headier tone in notes like the "Cross-Eyed Mary" F5s, the classic "Aces High" G5, and even the live G♯5s from the live versions of "Flight Of Icarus and "Where Eagles Dare" from the amazing Hammersmith show where he stays remarkably consistent with his mixed notes in the D5-E5 range. However, he has a COMPLETELY different style of screaming he showed in his Samson days, or the studio version of "Flight Of Icarus" and the G5 in "Be Quick Or Be Dead" to name just a few. As Timi has pointed out, those have a real Gillan-esque sound as opposed to the other highs.

In these cases, I see no point with describing these things because it's obvious when listening, and it's not diminishing, just more descriptive. Hell, if one has the knowledge to recognize different approaches, that is a positive to me, not a negative.

But in any case, if someone feels passionate enough for there to be major disagreements, I say it's best to go with whatever causes the least problems.

Wanderlust wrote:

Great song. One of my introductions to music actually. My father use to play this album all the time when it came out. Completely off topic, but I love Gary Moore. Very good singer, masterful guitarist and imo, both his blues and metal stuff was great.

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Re: To Blue or Not to Blue?

Post  Hopscotch on Thu Aug 07, 2014 8:16 am

See, everyone points to Bruce Dickinson as a classic example of someone with a clear "belty mixed voice" and "gritty falsetto" break, but I've never heard it as that clear. I mean sure, he's got his high waily stuff and he's got screamy stuff like "Run to the Hills" etc., but it's definitely not black and white as to where one ends and the other begins. And to me, that's the biggest problem with the whole colours system - there's an infinite number of ways to blend different tones so that the "switches" are sneakily disguised. Even for guys like Ian Gillan and Ronnie James Dio (or hell, Jack Black for that matter), there's occasional notes that are just really borderline that kind of have elements of both of their high approaches and are difficult to classify as one or the other. That's why the whole system is so subjective. You're still entitled to go about this stuff however you want, but that's the major reason I've ultimately given up on it.
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Re: To Blue or Not to Blue?

Post  OldSchoolHeavyMetal on Thu Aug 07, 2014 11:00 pm

I hear ya, though actually, I think RTTH is a good example because the really high screams sound completely different to the classic E5s in the chorus, but yeah, it does get so subjective if we're talking about the same thing, but hearing it differently. With Gillan, I tend to think his real chesty notes have such a different sound at times like the D5 in "The Temple" vs his other D5s, but his weird thing is he starts with that headier tone at other times as low as B♭4, B4 and continues it up. Back when the color system was used universally, that live "Child In Time" I posted was a prime example when he didn't use the soft falsetto for the E5s as he did on the studio version, and instead they pretty much sounded like the C5s, and on up, so it does get confusing. As for Dio. I think he's much easier, but the weird thing is what you pointed out a while back that some of Dio's backing vocal E5s-F5s are much cleaner than you'd expect, but don't really sound different tonally, but those are purple anyway, since he really only did that in backing vocals.

Actually, one of the biggest flaws in the old color system to me was trying to determine registers of backing vocals, but purple really solves that, which is an addition I like in general because I thought if people didn't know certain notes were backing vocals, it made it more difficult to find them.

I'm pretty much only in favor if it's pretty clear. I'd agree at this point that there's not much point in trying to debate where "switches" occur or whatever when it's borderline. And the board probably is better off not taking up space in singer's threads discussing it, with this thread being a notable exception because it was created for the sole purpose of discussing the issue.

In any case, I think most agree at this point that if you're going to do it, that it's better to be more descriptive than just "non-modal". What I would say is that more than falsetto or fry, I'd be in favor of listing whistle notes separately. I don't even think I've been an active contributor, much less created a thread where a singer has really used whistle much, if at all, so it hasn't really been relevant to me, but that's what I'd personally do.

Oh wait, I forgot. I have contributed to Dio's thread and he did have the "scientifically proven" A6.  Facepalm 

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Re: To Blue or Not to Blue?

Post  OldSchoolHeavyMetal on Fri Aug 08, 2014 6:18 pm

Of course, I would be in favor of making Phil Anselmo's highs blue and clearly defined as falsetto, provided his thread includes "for an example of full high notes, listen to 'that dude from Manowar.'"

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Re: To Blue or Not to Blue?

Post  Hopscotch on Fri Aug 08, 2014 6:42 pm

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Re: To Blue or Not to Blue?

Post  Celice on Tue Aug 26, 2014 10:57 am

BioHazard634 wrote:I'm feeling very alone in being in favor of using blue (really any color, blue is just the most common) to mark falsetto (or vocal fry maybe) notes. It seems everybody is completely in favor of the newer format, which utilizes purple (I still can't find the purple you guys use) for backing vocals/obscured or muffled vocals. So I just want to know, who is either completely against, completely for, or indifferent to whether or not falsetto is distinguished?
Thanks for starting this thread, BioHazard. It's been a real eye-opener for me, and I'll admit to being genuinely surprised by the poll results so far. I've seen instances of established users advising newer ones against using the "old" colours, explaining that we don't do things that way nowadays, but when we actually ask people's opinions the results show a very different and more complicated picture.
Sorry to have hijacked your thread a bit with a separate (albeit related) debate. I plan to take that discussion to a new thread and possibly quote bits of this one to reply to the points which have been raised, unless anyone thinks that might unfairly bias the argument, in which case I guess I'll just continue the discussion here (sorry BioHazard!)
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Re: To Blue or Not to Blue?

Post  BioHazard634 on Tue Aug 26, 2014 11:03 am

Celice wrote:
BioHazard634 wrote:I'm feeling very alone in being in favor of using blue (really any color, blue is just the most common) to mark falsetto (or vocal fry maybe) notes. It seems everybody is completely in favor of the newer format, which utilizes purple (I still can't find the purple you guys use) for backing vocals/obscured or muffled vocals. So I just want to know, who is either completely against, completely for, or indifferent to whether or not falsetto is distinguished?
Thanks for starting this thread, BioHazard. It's been a real eye-opener for me, and I'll admit to being genuinely surprised by the poll results so far. I've seen instances of established users advising newer ones against using the "old" colours, explaining that we don't do things that way nowadays, but when we actually ask people's opinions the results show a very different and more complicated picture.
Sorry to have hijacked your thread a bit with a separate (albeit related) debate. I plan to take that discussion to a new thread and possibly quote bits of this one to reply to the points which have been raised, unless anyone thinks that might unfairly bias the argument, in which case I guess I'll just continue the discussion here (sorry BioHazard!)
I agree completely, that I am still quite surprised at the results and it shows that, at least out of those who voted, the majority seems to prefer marking falsetto notes as such, or don't really mind if it is used, however, some users seem to have us believe differently. When you simply put it a subject out to be discussed like this, you can really see what users like and want, and also what they don't. No need to be sorry Celice, I appreciate everyone who replied and took the time to show their side, as long as it stays (somewhat) civil, then I'm fine. Thumb up
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Re: To Blue or Not to Blue?

Post  wabba_treads on Tue Aug 26, 2014 11:30 am

I'm with Celice on this one. Awesome thread topic Biohazard! This kind of consensus is really healthy for the forums well -being. It's either that or let a butthurt debate happen, which hasn't worked so well in the past. Smile

At any rate, I gave the poll some thought and I think that the blue note system currently running is best. Keep the inclusion of any blue notes completely up to the OP.

I like to think falsetto as a really light head voice with LITTLE-TO-NO cord closure. That gives the note an airy flutey quality that is distinct from the rest of your voice. Keeping that in mind, suddenly it gets a lot easier to me to discern black and blue notes. Does the note a singer is hitting have an airy or "disconnected" sound ala King Diamond (even he used mixed / more head voice later on in his career)?

If so, Voila you have a blue note!
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Re: To Blue or Not to Blue?

Post  Holsety on Tue Aug 26, 2014 11:38 am

After a while of arguing over these notes so much we needed an in-between color that only caused more arguments, I've given up on this except for singers with really obvious breaks.

This thread of mine is a prime example of my limit with these sorts of colors. Keep in mind this is not the old system either, because I'm not using the old-fashioned 'non-modal notes' definition.

Doing anything more than this is too subjective for my taste. Literally any human being could make the thread differently with that stupid system; so what's the point, and how is it possibly credible? That's my perspective.
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Re: To Blue or Not to Blue?

Post  Karl on Tue Aug 26, 2014 11:40 am

Since I am one of the few who selected the "I am against the use of blue to distinguish falsetto" option, I may as well explain myself.

Separating falsetto perpetuates the very outcastboy full voice>falsetto mentality, and that's enough for me to not use it.

EDIT: This is in fact why I encourage newer users who use the old system to instead use the newer one, suggest using it for older threads, and remake old ones with the new system.

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Re: To Blue or Not to Blue?

Post  Hopscotch on Tue Aug 26, 2014 1:59 pm

I'm not opposed to the use of blue to distinguish soft falsetto notes, though I don't bother to use it anymore myself. But I'm completely against the notion of using it to mark "gritty falsetto" or "power falsetto" or "Painkiller voice" notes differently, because that leads us down the whole TRP1esque road of where a singer's range with their "full" tone ends and where their "gritty falsetto" begins. At the end of the day, we should still be counting the notes equally towards their range regardless, so it's really just in no way beneficial to have such debates. The reason I'm more open to marking soft falsetto notes differently is because usually those are a bit clearer to pick out - though even then, there are exceptions. Ville Valo's B5 is a pretty good example of a clip where it's hard to tell where he "switches" into soft falsetto, in my opinion.
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Re: To Blue or Not to Blue?

Post  Karl on Tue Aug 26, 2014 2:50 pm

That's another thing, people's definition of "soft falsetto" changes depending on who you ask. Ville Valo's B5 isn't really soft falsetto to me. That entire passage sounds like he uses head voice and mixed. I don't perceive much tonal change whatsoever there, apart from him changing the vowel and "heady-ness". It's not as belted as his other notes around there because it's so high for him, but still pretty strong. Also everyone's notes weaken and sound more heady near the top of their range.

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Re:To Blue Or Not To BLue?

Post  Fetty Mercury on Wed Sep 03, 2014 10:07 pm

Here is the color system I like.
Black for full voice notes.
Blue for Falsetto and fry notes.
Orange for notes with questionable registers.
Italics for non-sung notes.
Or maybe some other colors.
Why i like this is so some idiot doesn't say something like
"zomg mike patton has a full vois F#7!!!
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Re: To Blue or Not to Blue?

Post  Buh-Red on Wed Sep 03, 2014 11:51 pm

i dont like distinguishing between registers, i prefer focusing on what sounds good or what is most technically admirable. people tend to dismiss the difficulty of certain notes just because theyre falsetto. any well supported A5, for example, whether falsetto or otherwise, is incredible

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Re: To Blue or Not to Blue?

Post  Karl on Thu Sep 04, 2014 12:29 am

minecraftfan11 wrote:Here is the color system I like.
Black for full voice notes.
Blue for Falsetto and fry notes.
Orange for notes with questionable registers.
Italics for non-sung notes.
Or maybe some other colors.
Why i like this is so some idiot doesn't say something like
"zomg mike patton has a full vois F#7!!!
Where has anyone said anything like that?

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Re: To Blue or Not to Blue?

Post  Holsety on Thu Sep 04, 2014 2:37 am

minecraftfan11 wrote:Here is the color system I like.
Black for full voice notes.
Blue for Falsetto and fry notes.
Orange for notes with questionable registers.
Italics for non-sung notes.
Or maybe some other colors.
Why i like this is so some idiot doesn't say something like
"zomg mike patton has a full vois F#7!!!

I'm really sick of every new member of this forum joining with this logic. Almost every single time, without fail, someone joins thinking they will revive the old system. They are convinced they have infallible logic that's never been brought up before. This system is worthless, and varies wildly depending on whose thread it is. Why do you care what register some singer produces a note in? You have no way of knowing how they're doing that, so why should you waste your time guessing what might be going on?

And how does this prevent people from saying things like that? People always assume the old threads' uncolored notes are 'full voice', where it pertained to what we considered their 'connected range'. The rest of it was random other notes we couldn't be bothered to distinguish or notes that were clearly different from the rest of it. We constantly told people, 'black' =///= 'full'. TRP2 was started in August of 2012 to get away from the 'full/falsetto' terminology, and there are still people joining thinking it's worth anyone's time. My definition of 'full' is different than yours, so what does it mean to me when you use it? I have no way of knowing unless you say so. The general consensus is to use these terms as long as we know what you mean, but don't try to incorporate it in threads. It's a waste of time.

Of course, when it doesn't say that in the threads, people always assume that's the case. With a new system that focuses more on where to find a note in a song and the lightness or heaviness of singing, we can focus more on good-sounding singing, which is what really matters, there isn't any confusion or any guessing. Please, feel free to waste your time, but I'd like to get rid of the system completely; we highly recommend the new system that everyone else considers a 'fad', but people still like to use, old, dated, subjective methods instead. How does this help anyone but yourself?
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Re: To Blue or Not to Blue?

Post  Karl on Thu Sep 04, 2014 2:48 am

I don't really understand why the old system hasn't been abolished already. "Blue marks probable non-modal notes"? It's really not that different that including "Assumed full voice range", or "modal range". Modality discussions/arguments are pretty much inevitable with new users as long as the old system remains.

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Re: To Blue or Not to Blue?

Post  Bassman on Thu Sep 04, 2014 6:12 am

Super Bread wrote:i dont like distinguishing between registers, i prefer focusing on what sounds good or what is most technically admirable. people tend to dismiss the difficulty of certain notes just because theyre falsetto. any well supported A5, for example, whether falsetto or otherwise, is incredible
Precisely. Agree with you 100% there, Bread. I notewatch vocalists to enjoy their sound and determine their usable range. I don't care what register someones uses to hit a certain note, as long as it sounds great. Besides, for me it's always such a nuisance to try to figure out whether a note is blue or black. Even if a vocalist would have an obvious switch in registers, I really couldn't care less about it. I also think people would miss the point of showcasing a singer on this forum if a thread would distinguish registers. People would rather comment "Wow, that guy can hit a black C6!!" instead of something like: "Great voice he has! I love the way he wails on those high notes" which, in my opinion, would be much more interesting to talk about instead of discussing the blackness of certain notes. That's what this forum is about, right? Talking about people's voices (excluding register talk).

As for significance, I personally just count every intentionally hit note and spoken passages with the intention to go low, with the exception of nano-second notes.

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Re: To Blue or Not to Blue?

Post  Buh-Red on Thu Sep 04, 2014 12:57 pm

i don't understand why people find register discussion so neccessary. as if it'd make a singer's range more meaningful or interesting; everyone would just argue about what is and what isn't falsetto like they did when the old system was king. where's the neccessity in that, when we can instead be talking about the limits, the energy, the texture, the elegance which a singer can convey through voice Confused



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Re: To Blue or Not to Blue?

Post  Guest on Wed Sep 24, 2014 12:02 pm

I think the distinction should definitely be made. I don't think anyone will deny that falsetto doesn't have uses but in my opinion it's misleading to quantify vocal range as a unit if that unit has a break. Vocal range shouldn't be considered for the distance between the lowest and highest note alone, but for the quality and control the singer has in between. Falsetto is a break because it doesn't lend the same flexability of dynamic and timbre as the full-voice range. Retaining that flexability throughout your range is what many singers strive for and why the distinction is stressed in opera, theater, vocal tuition, etc.

At the very least it would be good to see certain users opposed to this "system" respect that this distinction is almost universal within "singing circles" instead of insulting other users.
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Re: To Blue or Not to Blue?

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