To Blue or Not to Blue?

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Do you favor the distinction of falsetto notes?

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To Blue or Not to Blue?

Post  BioHazard634 on Mon Jul 28, 2014 1:26 pm

I'm feeling very alone in being in favor of using blue (really any color, blue is just the most common) to mark falsetto (or vocal fry maybe) notes. It seems everybody is completely in favor of the newer format, which utilizes purple (I still can't find the purple you guys use) for backing vocals/obscured or muffled vocals. So I just want to know, who is either completely against, completely for, or indifferent to whether or not falsetto is distinguished?
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Re: To Blue or Not to Blue?

Post  Starman on Mon Jul 28, 2014 1:29 pm

. for the purple we use (quote this and see how I did it)

Use whatever you want, it really doesn't matter, I find the simpler the colour system the better.
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Re: To Blue or Not to Blue?

Post  Karl on Mon Jul 28, 2014 1:32 pm

insert text here
quote that, don't use the color palette.

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Re: To Blue or Not to Blue?

Post  BioHazard634 on Mon Jul 28, 2014 1:33 pm

Starman wrote:. for the purple we use (quote this and see how I did it)

Use whatever you want, it really doesn't matter, I find the simpler the colour system the better.
Testing, testing. Hehey, we did it! Thanks, Starman!

EDIT: Thank you as well Karl!
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Re: To Blue or Not to Blue?

Post  Zedd Squared on Mon Jul 28, 2014 1:39 pm

I think it's fine to use to mark notes that are clearly disconnected from chest voice in that airy way, but it doesn't work if you're gonna try to use it to say what is "modal" or "non-modal" because that just gets silly. I also generally avoid using blue for any notes that are strong or piercing, and just for soft falsetto stuff. Unless it's someone like King Diamond who's falsetto is so distinctly unrelated to the rest of his voice.
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Re: To Blue or Not to Blue?

Post  MrToddington on Mon Jul 28, 2014 1:48 pm

You can do whatever style suits.

I use colours where I feel it could help to help separate different vocal approaches, or vocal differences. Take this thread for example: http://therangeplace.forummotions.com/t1752-rikard-sjoblom

I've used green for harsh/distorted vocals, and magenta for soft vocals. This isn't saying that green is necessarily growl or fry, or magenta is falsetto. I prefer not to make statements like "this note is falsetto", instead going for "this note is softer than usual" - fewer arguments that way, and less focus on what is "full voice" and what isn't (and if that thread did use blue-for-falsetto instead, you'd see only some notes get blue).

For some threads I don't need colours, and for others I do. My next couple of threads will likely use the purple-for-backing-vocals approach, since a lot of the highs aren't really at the front of the mix. The aim is to help the reader work out what kind of notes are what in songs, in my opinion.
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Re: To Blue or Not to Blue?

Post  Shikkaku on Mon Jul 28, 2014 11:02 pm

I (as do other users on the forum) mark as blue not simply "falsetto" notes - but "clear/disconnected/soft" notes or approached with a falsetto-like tone, and I think it's only worthwile in cases when the "falsettish" notes have a noticeably different sound than the "not-falsettish" ones. I don't see the need to do that with a guy that uses a lot of soft head voice or falsetto for most of the high pitches like Sigur Rós' Jónsi or somebody that has a very extensive register-blurring high range like José Andrëa where trying to differentiate registers is something that would cause a lot of debates and confusion (not really, considering I'm the only one that cares about him, but you got the point Very Happy ).
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Re: To Blue or Not to Blue?

Post  BioHazard634 on Wed Jul 30, 2014 6:21 am

I didn't wanna make a new thread for these questions, and since we were already talking about how to get that purple, we might as well go from there. So two questions:

1. If I were to add purple notes right on here, what would be the most efficient way to do it. Just copy/paste the format (can't think of a better word) and paste the note in between?

2. I always have the thread colored, spaced, italicized, etc. perfectly, but when I copy/paste it to a thread, all the formatting is removed and I have to redo everything on here. Any idea why this is and how I can fix it?
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Re: To Blue or Not to Blue?

Post  Guest on Wed Jul 30, 2014 7:26 am

For falsetto and for fry, so it becomes more symmetrical.
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Re: To Blue or Not to Blue?

Post  Holsety on Wed Jul 30, 2014 9:58 am

BioHazard634 wrote:I didn't wanna make a new thread for these questions, and since we were already talking about how to get that purple, we might as well go from there. So two questions:

1. If I were to add purple notes right on here, what would be the most efficient way to do it. Just copy/paste the format (can't think of a better word) and paste the note in between?

2. I always have the thread colored, spaced, italicized, etc. perfectly, but when I copy/paste it to a thread, all the formatting is removed and I have to redo everything on here. Any idea why this is and how I can fix it?

1. I've always just typed around it around them but your idea seems more efficient.

2. You'll need to italicize, bold and color stuff once you post it on TRP, ie.

Bold [ b ] [ / b ]
Italic [ i ] [ / i ]
Colors [ color = purple ] [ / color ]

Without spaces of course; or you could try switching your editor mode and then pasting it. That's the very bottom right icon. Preview before sending etc.
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Re: To Blue or Not to Blue?

Post  BioHazard634 on Wed Jul 30, 2014 10:11 am

Holsety wrote:
BioHazard634 wrote:I didn't wanna make a new thread for these questions, and since we were already talking about how to get that purple, we might as well go from there. So two questions:

1. If I were to add purple notes right on here, what would be the most efficient way to do it. Just copy/paste the format (can't think of a better word) and paste the note in between?

2. I always have the thread colored, spaced, italicized, etc. perfectly, but when I copy/paste it to a thread, all the formatting is removed and I have to redo everything on here. Any idea why this is and how I can fix it?

1. I've always just typed around it around them but your idea seems more efficient.

2. You'll need to italicize, bold and color stuff once you post it on TRP, ie.

Bold [ b ] [ / b ]
Italic [ i ] [ / i ]
Colors [ color = purple ] [ / color ]

Without spaces of course; or you could try switching your editor mode and then pasting it. That's the very bottom right icon. Preview before sending etc.
I may or may not have tried the editor mode thing before, but if I did then it didn't work. Hopefully I'll remember to try that next time. Thanks!
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Re: To Blue or Not to Blue?

Post  The Great Heroins on Thu Jul 31, 2014 7:12 pm

For me it completely depends on how separate of an entity the singer in questions "falsetto" stuff is. If they have two distinct registers up and down their range where there is a clear split that is no way consistent (Jim Morrison's blue notes) I would use the color system. For someone like Macca who blends his whole register up and down and is consistent in quality no matter what approach he takes I think it's silly to try to distinguish. Also, I agree with Garric that in the past we would mark stuff as "falsetto" that could potentially be this insanely powerful, piercing high note. Then we actually would try to distinguish between that and what was "full" up there. Haha, so insane when you look back.
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Re: To Blue or Not to Blue?

Post  boob on Sun Aug 03, 2014 2:52 am

I use colors to paint pictures; not to make arguments.

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Re: To Blue or Not to Blue?

Post  BioHazard634 on Sun Aug 03, 2014 3:02 am

boob wrote:I use colors to paint pictures; not to make arguments.
That's pretty good, I like that. Smile Also, thank you to everyone else who commented. I never really acknowledged anyone, but I did read all the comments and I appreciate the replies!
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Re: To Blue or Not to Blue?

Post  OldSchoolHeavyMetal on Mon Aug 04, 2014 10:23 pm

I'm completely in favor of it when it's a clear difference. King Diamond was a good example as Whackooyzero said. I agree that someone like Halford, there's less of a point because where exactly is the difference? I mean, you'd pretty much need to find it somewhere in the upper 4th octave/lower 5th octave where he starts using a headier tone, but when does it become clear? So for some guys it doesn't make sense.

I also agree with Todd that it's better to me more descriptive with growls, harsh screams ect. For falsetto, what I like is something that someone(Sandblasted?) started doing that I've seen in a number of threads which is specifying "soft or disconnected" falsetto notes. I think that'd also be good for someone like King Diamond, and it's not making statements that are tough to verify like that those are the only falsetto notes included, but I think it gets across the point that it's the obvious stuff in a different style, and if it's obvious, you're not really going out on any sort of limb, or trying to pick an arbitrary "cut off" point like you might with someone like Halford or Tate.

I think anything more descriptive, or any additional information to threads is a good thing, whether it's styles or whatever. I personally think something for obvious fry notes would be good as well, not the borderline stuff, but obvious, since it's not like people don't notice that sort of thing when there's a clear difference.

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Re: To Blue or Not to Blue?

Post  Celice on Tue Aug 05, 2014 3:42 am

It would be more accurate to say I'm ambivalent rather than indifferent. As others have mentioned, there are some threads where it makes a lot of sense and others where it could be a bit pointless and arbitrary.
I feel very frustrated that we seem to have replaced one subjective and arbitrary threshold with another, in my view worse one, since the idea that certain notes are unworthy to be counted has gained popularity. At least with falsetto-labelling and other colour labelling for different categories of notes, the notes are still listed and anyone who's interested can find them and make their own judgements. Deciding whether a note counts as "significant" is absurdly subjective, and criteria may vary between different users, which isn't so bad if it's included anyway so it's just another category and people can form their own opinions, but appointing ourselves judges of what "counts" gets a bit ridiculous, as well as controversial and confusing. When we have "total range" listed separately from "melodic range", it's natural for lurkers and newbies to expect total range to include all known vocal pitches. I think we should at least be more specific and use a heading like "significant range" if that's what is meant.
I also think it would be useful to have one colour for "questionable notes", which could include notes of questionable significance as well as notes of uncertain pitch, or situations like uncertainty regarding which singer is hitting the note (e.g. in harmony/ backing vocals), etc.
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Re: To Blue or Not to Blue?

Post  Zedd Squared on Tue Aug 05, 2014 7:40 am

Celice wrote:At least with falsetto-labelling and other colour labelling for different categories of notes, the notes are still listed and anyone who's interested can find them and make their own judgements. Deciding whether a note counts as "significant" is absurdly subjective, and criteria may vary between different users, which isn't so bad if it's included anyway so it's just another category and people can form their own opinions, but appointing ourselves judges of what "counts" gets a bit ridiculous, as well as controversial and confusing. When we have "total range" listed separately from "melodic range", it's natural for lurkers and newbies to expect total range to include all known vocal pitches. I think we should at least be more specific and use a heading like "significant range" if that's what is meant.
I also think it would be useful to have one colour for "questionable notes", which could include notes of questionable significance as well as notes of uncertain pitch, or situations like uncertainty regarding which singer is hitting the note (e.g. in harmony/ backing vocals), etc.
As B6 pointed out in the Amy Lee thread, we're very much an individualized community. Over the past 4-5 years (starting with Jowox videos and progressing onwards from there), we've developed a rather peculiar and uncommon way of talking about voices and notes. Since the current users have likely seen some older range videos or read old threads or things of this nature, they begin to think that "vocal range" can include absolutely any pitch produced by a singer regardless of context.

The funny thing is, you can tell that these singers don't consider these cracks, yelps, hell even certain spoken parts as part of their range. Most people who think of vocal range simply think of controlled pitches a singer can sing while sounding good in some way. It's only this TRP mentality that supports the idea of "every pitch produced by the singer" and it is in fact MORE controversial to count those notes than not count them. What's frustrating me Celice is you seem to essentially be making the My Fairy King argument, which very few users on this site actually support and pretty much the rest of the staff strongly disagree with.

I'm personally fine with people wanting to use different systems or individualizing things, but I don't think there's any harm in moving the mentality away from "total range" and back to "vocal range". Doesn't mean we can't ever count spoken parts, but are they emphatic? I understand there's no system that will completely remove debates, but if we can stop being so desensitized by the "total range" thing and go back to the idea of loving singing that brought us all here, it would probably be useful to focus on the traditional idea of vocal range.
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Re: To Blue or Not to Blue?

Post  Celice on Tue Aug 05, 2014 8:24 am

Whackooyzero wrote:Since the current users have likely seen some older range videos or read old threads or things of this nature, they begin to think that "vocal range" can include absolutely any pitch produced by a singer regardless of context.
That's not just our doing: if you look at a few random vocal range videos on YouTube you're likely to find some non-TRP ones listing squeals etc as part of a singer's range. The other Kate Bush range video mentioned on her thread covers a much wider range than the one B6 made, and with a singer like Kate Bush who uses unusual vocalisations in her music, decisions over which of those count and which don't become rather arbitrary.

Most people who think of vocal range simply think of controlled pitches a singer can sing while sounding good in some way.
That sort of thinking loses relevance when we consider vocalists like Diamanda Galas.

I'm personally fine with people wanting to use different systems or individualizing things, but I don't think there's any harm in moving the mentality away from "total range" and back to "vocal range".
And now I'm back to semantic pedantry again: if you use total range and vocal range to mean different things, the logical implication would be that total range could include non-vocal sounds like lip whistles, snorts or farts  Laughing 

Doesn't mean we can't ever count spoken parts, but are they emphatic?
Subjectivity again.

I understand there's no system that will completely remove debates, but if we can stop being so desensitized by the "total range" thing and go back to the idea of loving singing that brought us all here, it would probably be useful to focus on the traditional idea of vocal range.
Right, that works because there's only one traditional idea of vocal range.
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Re: To Blue or Not to Blue?

Post  Hopscotch on Tue Aug 05, 2014 9:02 am

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Re: To Blue or Not to Blue?

Post  Celice on Tue Aug 05, 2014 9:15 am

Clap I love you Dance 
When I saw you'd posted in this thread, I clicked on it expecting to read an essay  Smile
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Re: To Blue or Not to Blue?

Post  Zedd Squared on Tue Aug 05, 2014 9:52 am

Celice wrote:
Whackooyzero wrote:Since the current users have likely seen some older range videos or read old threads or things of this nature, they begin to think that "vocal range" can include absolutely any pitch produced by a singer regardless of context.
That's not just our doing: if you look at a few random vocal range videos on YouTube you're likely to find some non-TRP ones listing squeals etc as part of a singer's range. The other Kate Bush range video mentioned on her thread covers a much wider range than the one B6 made, and with a singer like Kate Bush who uses unusual vocalisations in her music, decisions over which of those count and which don't become rather arbitrary.

Most people who think of vocal range simply think of controlled pitches a singer can sing while sounding good in some way.
That sort of thinking loses relevance when we consider vocalists like Diamanda Galas.

I'm personally fine with people wanting to use different systems or individualizing things, but I don't think there's any harm in moving the mentality away from "total range" and back to "vocal range".
And now I'm back to semantic pedantry again: if you use total range and vocal range to mean different things, the logical implication would be that total range could include non-vocal sounds like lip whistles, snorts or farts  Laughing 

Doesn't mean we can't ever count spoken parts, but are they emphatic?
Subjectivity again.
There's always going to be subjectivity no matter what you do. Even if we make it so that we allow anyone to count any notes they feel like, we can't always agree on the exact pitch, octave, whether it's an overtone, whether there's an effect on it, whether it's the singer in question, and so on and so forth. Sure in most cases this won't be the case but we've had two forums worth demonstrating how often people's ears can disagree in cases of extreme notes or "red notes" if you will.

As for "vocal range" versus "total range" well how about we ignore the terms and make it quite simple. What does the majority of TRP and the TRP staff want? Controlled range really. Semantically we could argue that we should thereby rephrase how we list these things in the OP but I don't see a great deal of harm in leaving it the way it is. Also, why are you so in favor of counting every bad note a singer produces but are still completely against counting interview notes? Following the logic of counting every note a singer produces we might as well start counting random interview mumbles again. Cringe 

You said at the end of your post that there are multiple ideas of what vocal range is, and while that's certainly true why do we have to consider every variation of that idea? Are we more interested in singing or range? Because if you are a SINGER and you're trying to figure out what your own range is for example, you wouldn't honestly consider yourself capable of an A6 just because you noticed you briefly cracked up to one in a recording. This forum may indeed be called "the range place" but it's even written in the rules that "vocal range alone does NOT matter: good singing (and music) does.", so shouldn't we be using note watching and range as a way of demonstrating and discussing good singing? It only seems to fit.

Your point about Galas is considerable I admit. But really, even experimental noises done intentionally are more relevant to our discussion than regular singers cracking on notes. In the Litanies of Satan for example there are definitely some very controlled notes in there to be considered despite the erratic style, but she has a lot of normal singing anyways. We can apply the idea of "singing range/controlled range" to even these extreme cases.
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Re: To Blue or Not to Blue?

Post  Holsety on Tue Aug 05, 2014 10:14 am

Celice, I'd suggest you not support a system that's too subjective to be effective at all. That way, your statements about subjectivity would be remotely valid.
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Re: To Blue or Not to Blue?

Post  B6 on Tue Aug 05, 2014 10:29 am

Not relevant to the main discussion, but, however scary and inconsequential, Galas'(s?) singing is definitely insanely controlled, intentional, etc etc. It's meant to be the way it is, I'd like to say. Though I'm not sure that plays in her favour as a person http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mIVWqn1AvAc
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Re: To Blue or Not to Blue?

Post  BioHazard634 on Tue Aug 05, 2014 10:36 am

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Re: To Blue or Not to Blue?

Post  wabba_treads on Tue Aug 05, 2014 11:06 am

B6 wrote:Not relevant to the main discussion, but, however scary and inconsequential, Galas'(s?) singing is definitely insanely controlled, intentional, etc etc. It's meant to be the way it is, I'd like to say. Though I'm not sure that plays in her favour as a person http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mIVWqn1AvAc

On that note, I still don't know what to call this...

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Re: To Blue or Not to Blue?

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